Election Results

[Kaleban]

The Bible has been added to, changed, translated, and even subtracted from since the inception of Christianity as an organized religion. If nothing had been changed, you wouldn't have Lutherans, Mormons, Catholics, Baptists, etc., etc. There would be only one.

Gay marriage/civil unions don't warp children, abusive marriages with alcoholic parents who beat or molest their children is what warps kids. Of course, if you consider politeness, generosity and good nature warping, and would rather have a beer-swilling, wife beating arm chair quarterback for a kid, than I suppose gay marriage is bad.

You can't draw lines regarding abortion as to the circumstance of birth. Pro-lifers say abortion is murder, but you're saying murder is ok if the conditions merit it? Either a woman's body is her own province, or it isn't, REGARDLESS of outside circumstances.

And as to religion in schools, tell me the last time the native american child was allowed to offer prayers to the earth spirit, or the saudi arabian child allowed to give thanks to Allah? It DOESN'T happen, and anyone who says its guaranteed by the Constitution so quit whining is intentionally blinding themselves to the truth. The truth being that most of the country is controlled by Christians and their ilk, so that pro-Christian views have much more weight than secular or other religious views. Want proof? Just ask yourself why there is no other powerful religious lobbying group, APART from the Christian Coalition?

/rant.

[Steele]

and I'm just tired of reading these long posts.

Kal...with all due respect...don't read em then

[Gambit]

Dude. Get some facts.
Ever heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls? They contain, in whole and part, much of the contents of the New Testament - and are reliably dated back to the first century. Were there changes? Yes, a few. An event chronicled here isn't present there. This city's name was spelled differently. That phrase was translated poorly. Stuff like that. Do NOT get me started on the validity of the Bible unless you want to wade through a HUGE pile of references from both the Christian community and the scientific community. I invite you to do a little research.

Lutherans and Baptists use the same Bible. The Catholics have a few extra books, nothing major is different in them. The differences between the three denominations are attributable to interpretation and tradition.

The Mormons have a couple of additional books which are demonstrably fiction, and have no scientific validity that I'm aware of. Their leaders seem to change the source material when it suits them. These books seem to take precedence over the Bible and contradict it on many major points.

Saying hetero households are alcoholic child molesters and gay households are polite, generous, and good-natured is obvious hyperbole. You're breaking a number of debating rules, here, Kal.

Jester didn't say abortion in case of rape/incest was ok. He said it was a grey area. I disagree, though I'm not unsympathetic. (Rapists should be castrated, IMHO)

There are many other powerful religious lobbying groups than the Christian Coalition - you just don't hear about them in the media. I know for a fact that there are large visible Muslim and Jewish organizations, though they're not quite as strident. And the Jewish and Christian political bodies do NOT always stand on the same side of an issue.

Schools & prayers to Allah/earth spirit. You bet it happens. More often in a special program or something than class, but that happens too. Again, you don't hear about it much - but then they're minorities, aren't they? How much Christian news are you going to hear in China or Saudi? Here's an article I easily found where school kids are required to act Muslim :
http://www.thomasmore.org/news.html?NewsID=12
Not just dress Muslim, or learn about Muslim culture, but ACT Muslim, chanting Muslim prayers, and the like. Without informing parents, may I add.

Other stories:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/ps_praf.htm
http://www.becketfund.org/index.php/article/143.html

[Kaleban]

Okay, first to Steele, that comment was tongue in cheek, since I'M long-winded and usually write long overblown posts hehe.

To Gambit, I'm not breaking any debate rules, didn't know we were going formal. In any case, you mention the Mormons having books with no basis in scientific fact. You know, I don't remember the last time I saw fire rain down from the sky, a flood to cover all, some old guy parting a sea of water, etc., etc.

MOST religious texts are all parable. That is they tell a story to demonstrate a "rule of life" or moral code. Its a great way to teach young or uneducated people, since even a child understands the reasons why David can win against Goliath and other stories. They also instill hope.

But to tell me that the Catholic Bible rests solely on scientific evidence, well, that's just ignorant. Or ANY religious text for that matter. If they were scientific, they wouldn't be a faith, nor would we be having arguments! What about Creation vs. Evolution. There's plenty of scientific evidence FOR Evolution, yes with some inconsistencies, but it makes more logical sense according to what we know about the universe and nature than the Earth being the center of the Universe, being spun out of nothingness in six days, etc., etc. I mean, come on.

The Hetero vs. homo household comment is not facetious either. SCIENTIFIC evidence exists to point out that homosexuals taken as a whole group are less prone to aggressive tendencies, from spousal abuse to alcoholism. It is NOT an incorrect assertion.

And I didn't claim what Jester said was wrong/grey or whatever. What he said was that abortion should not be allowed, but would consider it under the circumstance of forced sexual intercourse. Soooo, that means abortion (i.e. murder) is ok under special circumstances. I'm trying to point out the hypocrisy of the statement. No offence to anyone, but abortion is NOT a grey area. Either a woman has control of her body (and yes a foetus is a parasite until born) or she doesn't, and that INCLUDES any external circumstances.

Having Muslim or Gaian prayers in a special class? I think that's called segregation, if I'm not mistaken? Outlawed? You bet. And the reason you don't hear about it? Because many of those in power are Christians, or what would be considered "conservative" which is a nice way of saying "stagnant", "change is bad", etc. And if I remember correctly, ALL Americans, be they celebrating Kwanzaa, Hanukkah, or Christmas, or whatever, are ALL entitled to the basic freedoms granted by the Bill of Rights and Constitution. To say otherwise enacts a gulf between those in power, and those without, which is what our country in reality is faced with.

I taught in a Minneapolis school for two years. Before that I was the school district's Networking Manager. I saw what goes on in schools. PUBLIC schools. And Minnesota is most decidedly conservative. There was a PUBLIC university in the same town. The first building was the "Gay, Lesbian, and Transgender Resources" building, which obviously catered to students of a decidedly non-conservative bent. Every year out of the five I lived there, I heard nothing but complaints and threats about the people that building catered to. One year, several parents were found to have drive-by egged an openly homosexual professor's house. Now, are you going to tell me that conservative Christians in that area were tolerant, and acknowledged that professor's and the students who frequented that building's right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness?

I think not.

P.S. The China/Saudi comment. They're not heterogenous societies, nor are they tolerant of other cultures. Nor do they paint themselves to be. America does. And America is most decidedly heterogenous in regards to cultures. Remember they ole "no taxation without representation..." line? I wonder if a cross-section of Congress accurately reflects the percentage mix of cultures in the USA? Probably not as well. So depressing.

[Gambit]

BTW - look how much Saddam was hurt by the sanctions: http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/....ap/index.html

Note also how much help we got/are getting from the UN in this investigation. Hmm... wonder why?

[Kaleban]

Amazing how that CNN story uses Russians as the "big bad bear" who helped Saddam and in turn helped themselves.

The USA has more claws in Iraq than Russia, France, and the E.U. combined, plus our ability to assist in subversion is much greater. Don't tell me you actually believe that the USA is truthfully not involved at the highest level in the big, bad, Saddam debacle?

P.S. That story doesn't make any special mention of U.N. involvement, except for one line out of the whole thing. And since it was their initiative, I would expect them to be heavily involved in investigating. Of course, there is the line about the brave Republican senator being mightily angered at the U.N. (a huge conglomeration of countries and bureacracy) for not ponying up ALL information in the very beginning stages of the probe. Might Mr. Coleman do the same for the FEMA money that went to Miami, which had less than 5% of the hurricane damage for the state, and that restricted to loss of shingles, all the while people in the direct path and homeless receive meager home allowance checks of $500 to $600 one time benefits to house and feed a family of four?

Of course, Miami voted in large part Republican, but we won't go into that. Considering that they have traditionally voted Democrat... D'OH we won't go into that... FEMA money spent on big screen TVs... D'OH!

P.S. Here's a blurb from the religion in schools article:

"The Thomas More Law Center defends the religious freedom of Christians, time-honored family values, and the sanctity of human life through litigation, education, and related activities. The Law Center provides its services at no charge, and depends on individual donations, foundations, and corporations for financial support. The IRS recognizes the Law Center as a 501(c)(3) organization and donations are tax deductible. You may contact the Law Center at (734) 827-2001 or visit its website at www.thomasmore.org."

HMMMM... Imagine them being interested in suing against teaching ABOUT another religion. Kids learn by doing. Now while I agree that teaching the religion AS religion would be wrong, a three week course showing "the other side" as it were in no way is indoctrination. A course like this might show children, the future, that while people hold different beliefs and speak differently, they're still people, not a statistic on the 6 o'clock news, nor the "towelheads" that Daddy keepes ranting about. I'm for it, and would encourage them to learn not only aboust Islam, but Judaism, the major sects of Christianity, perhaps some the Polynesian religions, etc., etc. Gives children a wider view of the world, and probably teaches tolerance. Of course, "conservatives" would term it indoctrination, but Christians don't indoctrinate anyone. Ok, time for church, just like EVERY Sunday at the same time...

[Gambit]

Debate rules:
We're not going formal. I'm telling you you're arguing in an unreasonable fashion. If we're going to do that, then this is a pointless discussion and should be closed. I'm finding your rhetoric rather uncalled-for. Can we discuss things civilly, or not?

Mormons/Scripture/Scientific fact:
I didn't say that the Bible is full of purely scientific fact. I didn't say I can prove that the Red Sea was parted for Moses, or the like. However, archaeologists for years have used the Bible as a reference for finding lost cities, and you know what? They find 'em right where they're supposed to be. That's one example. There are many others. In contrast, the Book of Mormon states than while Jesus was in America, the natives were riding horses, and that there were named cities in specific places. Not only have none of these cities ever been found, but the Spaniards brought horses with them after Columbus - they were not here earlier. It's chock full of stuff like that. THIS is the scientific evidence I was referring to.

Now, who's ignorant? Remember, you said it first.

Scientific studies: You mention research and studies, but you have yet to provide a single reference to anything. I've at least provided some links and offered references, true? How in the world can you argue effectively with or against a statement that "studies have shown?" You know, Microsoft-funded studies have shown that Linux costs more than Windows, while everyone else's show otherwise. Go figure. Give me some data, and we'll discuss it.

I didn't say "special classes." I said "special programs," and what I meant was similar to the traditional Christmas play. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

You know that the people who egged the professor's house were Christians... how? One, your assertion as written above implies that because they were anti-gay, they were Christians. You offer no other information in that regard. Two, as I've said earlier, just because you go to a Christian church, or your parents did, doesn't make you a Christian. Thirdly, as you noted, they obviously weren't acting in a Christ-like manner. Fourthly, I don't recall "tolerance" being taught anywhere in the Bible. I do see lots of "forgiveness" and "love," however. In case you need a definition for love, here's one:

Love endures long and is patient and kind; love never is envious nor boils over with jealousy, is not boastful or vainglorious, does not display itself haughtily.
It is not conceited (arrogant and inflated with pride); it is not rude (unmannerly) and does not act unbecomingly. Love (God's love in us) does not insist on its own rights or its own way, for it is not self-seeking; it is not touchy or fretful or resentful; it takes no account of the evil done to it [it pays no attention to a suffered wrong].
It does not rejoice at injustice and unrighteousness, but rejoices when right and truth prevail.
Love bears up under anything and everything that comes, is ever ready to believe the best of every person, its hopes are fadeless under all circumstances, and it endures everything [without weakening].
Love never fails [never fades out or becomes obsolete or comes to an end].

-1 Corinthians 13
The Amplified Bible

[Gambit]

Regarding the Muslim in schools thing: They're not just teaching about Islam, they're teaching Islam. So, they get three weeks of that, learning the pillars of Islam and saying Muslim prayers. Does the Christian segment make the kids, even the Muslim ones, memorize the Ten Commandments and saying the Lord's Prayer in class? How about the Jewish program? I'll bet money the Muslims parents would completely freak, and be even less tolerant than what you've observed from other segments of the population. But it'll never happen.

Did you see that they were having the kids play at JIHAD? Even Christian schools don't teach kids to play at the Crusades, y'know, let alone public ones.

BTW, I can find less, er, strongly opinionated versions of that story, if you'd like. I ran across several in my search.

[Kaleban]

"The Amplified Bible?" What is that?

First, I knew the people that did the drive by egging were Christians due to the fact that they went to indoctrination every Sunday, it was a small town, and EVERYONE there was Christian. The fact that most did not participate shows restraint, but absolutely no one except the university "community" showed outrage at the incident. I saw smugness, satisfaction, and other nasty emotions running through the community.

As to the Muslim parents freaking, so what? No one would care or notice, as you said, because they are a minority, no one is willing to fight for them, especially in times such as now. The Muslim parents might raise concerns if their children were taught about Christianity, but in the end, they would have no recourse, because the system is biased against them. Its NOT a two-way street. Although, in my experience, the Islamic religion is quite a bit more tolerant in practice, its only the right wing nutjobs of Islam that bomb things. Just like the right wing nutjobs here, who are usually fire and brimstone Christians of one stripe or another.

You ever play RISK!...? That's a board game, played with dice, to simulate conquering the world. I believe in the article, there was no mention of wrapping tablecloths around their heads, making mock AK-47s, and terrorizing the school. They simulated it with a DICE game. You need to stop looking for things between the lines and look at articles like this objectively.

And I have no recall of the last time a "special program" akin to a Christmas play allowed students of religions OTHER than Christianity a chance to pray or showcase their religion. Hell, you can't watch television or go to a movie for more than five minutes without seeing CHRISTMAS ads, but I haven't seen any Hanukkah ads or the like.

Look, its common sense. The country was founded on Puritanical values, much more strict than Christianity itself. Over time, its mellowed some, but there is a core group that espouses "morality" over tolerance and education. School boards and PTAs trying to change the curriculum to more closely follow religious texts, or to get rid of scientific principles altogether because it doesn't conform to the will of God, these types are all over the "Heartland" of America. Its called the heartland because it doesn't change. It espouses ignorance over knowledge, morality over tolerance and compassion, and other ugly "virtues" that modern, educated peoples realize is stagnant and hurtful to a healthy society.

Lastly, quoting scripture as proof is just laughable. You take even remedial history, and one of the first things they teach is the fact that the Bible, while being one of the oldest documents, is so fraught with changes, alterations, and other issues that it is NOT possible to take it at face value. Its also wildly vulnerable to interpretation. The last line in the Corinthians quote says:

"Love bears up under anything and everything that comes, is ever ready to believe the best of every person, its hopes are fadeless under all circumstances, and it endures everything [without weakening].
Love never fails [never fades out or becomes obsolete or comes to an end]."

To me, that means tolerance almost to a T, loving somebody for all their faults and greatnesses regardless of circumstance. Whether its brother to brother, husband and wife, or husband and husband, et al, doesn't matter.

And yeah, if you want me to go surf the Net looking for all sorts of documents to prove I'm right, only to be contradicted by scripture quotes, well that's a waste of time. These types of arguments/dialogues are all personal opinion anyways, and no matter what quotes we use, better men than we have argued this and STILL failed to resolve or convince each other. Doesn't mean we still cannot try, but as I've said, when you have friends such as the gang here at THZ who ARE openly gay, but refuse to recognise their right to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness guaranteed to them as citizens of the country because your outdated religion says you're not supposed to, well that's just silly.

Will you really take orders from a group of people who at one time, SOLD indulgences to the rich, to make themselves live a life of comfort while the peasantry lay dieing from starvation? Christianity, and more specifically Catholicism has been responsible for more tragedy in history than ANY other reason. That in itself is enough to make me doubt the wisdom of priests and ANY religion. Plus, I cannot believe that a God, if he/she exists, would not want us to exercise our minds and abilities that were given to us, rather than just sit around in stupefied prayer.

Look at it this way: genetic manipulation. We're not interfering in God's plan, its monstrously presumptuous to think we can. Humans don't invent new things, they only discover what was placed there by God. So if that's the case, then genetic engineering is a tool given to us by God to help improve our own lot in life. To NOT use it would be to throw it in God's face.

Whatever, I'm tired and going to bed.. Good as always, arguing with you guys, especially you Gambit!

[Ghryphen]

I've only been barely viewing this thread, we staying good in here or is it time for closing arguments?

[Stang]

Ok guys maybe we need to talk a breather now kinda seems like things are going a little down hill.

You guys feel so differently about things are you really going to change eachother? I doubt it. Its great to see the arguements from both sides but not to the point where we will end up lossing people around here. It's obvious you guys are on the opposite side of the fence but lets not calling people names and getting bad. We been friends way too long and don't need religion and politics to ruin it.

[Steele]

Kaleban is a big fat fart head...Jester has a stinky butt...and Stang...yer a...well you know...

[Kaleban]

Hmmm... I thought I smelled somethin, must be the green gas cloud hovering about my planetoid of a cranium! Just watched "So I Married an Axe Murderer" hehe.

I agree. Political beliefs and such are not something to ruin friendships over, I just feel very strongly as you all can probably tell. I just feel, I think at the core of the argument, is the gay marriage thing, and it just bugs the crap outta me that an event that has no effect on people outside those directly involved is in such heated contention. The banning of it directly circumvents secular law as established in this country.

Alright no more, I'm done. I'll march on Washington for Gay Rights, but I'm not gonna post about it anymore among friends. You all know where I stand, and I respect your beliefs even if I don't share them.

Damn, now I need to go blast something with my mortar...

[XMEN Ashaman DTM]

and it just bugs the crap outta me that an event that has no effect on people outside those directly involved is in such heated contention

Me too. :|

[Cerberus]

There was no name calling in my post.. I must not have hit submit, Hrm, I put a lot of thought into that one.