Election Results

[Cerberus]

999

[Cerberus]

yay 1000!!! w00t?

[Aluscia]

Lookslike 1002 on all your posts

[Stang]

Those posts shouldn't count . I think some should be deleted .

Kwanza is the religious holiday for African Americans.

[PrincessAmy]

WTG!

[Cerberus]

I know that, but WHAT is Kwanza?

[Gambit]

(*rant on*)
I'm going to make a sharp turn here and state publicly that I despise the term "African-American." Ok, so these people have an African heritage that they're proud of. Congratulations! It's a rich heritage. However, I don't go around demanding to be called a "German-American" or "British-American" or "European-American" or "Caucasian-American." If "white" people are called "Caucasian", then "black" people should be called "Negroids" or some such - it's an equivalent term. If it's "whites" and "coloreds" or "blacks," ok, but I can understand the reasons for getting away from those terms. IIRC, I believe that "Latin-American" people equally dislike the term "Hispanic," which is also broadly used on government forms and what-not.
I don't believe we should use country of origin for one group, continent for another, and culture for a third.
(*rant off*)
Ok, I'm done. We now return you to your regularly scheduled conversation.


I think Kwanzaa is a kind of generalized thing, rather than a specific event such as someone's birth or a specific deity's holy day or whatever. Might be a midwinter (midsummer?) festival.

Short answer = me dunno for sure either.

[Ghryphen]

Yeah, I don't think it is religious, it is just a celebration of african heritage which happens to be along the same time as Xmas.

[Stang]

I agree about the African American thing but its hard to say black or negro cuz they also take offense to those sayings too, only they can say that amongst themselves but if we say it then we are racists and then it all starts. Its hard to find out what to call everyone without hurting them, arggghhhh.

[XMEN Ashaman DTM]

Call them black. Don't use other words that have known negative connotations. If people are offended by it, then they're overly sensitive. I had a discussion about this with a guy that I work with. He's black. He was born in Atlanta, and moved to Denver at the ripe old age of 11. But he said that black is okay for him, and that he didn't understand why people were so sensitive towards that term. He said that in Atlanta, black is just fine. It's the other words that people have used for years, that are still used, that get to him and other blacks.

He also said that in his experience if a person just explodes when you use that word, and they don't ask you to not use it but just explode instead, then they are just looking for an excuse to make things into a white versus black thing.

I have also heard the same thing from my girlfriend. She teaches at a local school here with several black kids, a few hispanic kids, and a couple of white kids. And there is one black girl in particular who tries to throw the race thing at my girlfriend when she tries to get her to do something. "You hate me because I'm black!", "You are being mean to me because I'm black!", and "You're focusing on me because I'm black!" are all things this girl has said. Fortunately, my girlfriend had a student EXACTLY like this one in her student teaching days. And she also substituted in a district with a LOT of black kids. So when this girl tried using her skin color, my girlfriend was like, "That's not true! Stop saying that when it isn't true." My girlfriend specifically wanted to teach in a school that has many different ethnicities because a class of all white people would freak her out. (It'd freak me out too... and that's one of the reasons that I'll NEVER EVER live in the southeastern US.)


One thing that my girlfriend has consistently noted in most of the places she's taught, is that you can tell which kids are getting that kind of influence from their parent(s). It's sad.

I definitely understand that there is a culture difference between people with different skin colors. And a lot of the tension arises from misperceptions or misunderstandings. And some of the stuff is probably racist one both sides. But the majority of things is that people just don't try to truly understand each other. (And yes, contrary to belief, having black skin means that most people WILL treat you different. It's totally odd how you can watch people interact and see that there is definitely a culture clash. And I've heard black people say that regardless of whether a person is racist or not, they are treated differently when interacting with non-black people.)

[XMEN Ashaman DTM]

Back to the religious thing...


My point is not that a person praying is forcing their religion on me. That would be silly. Rather it's someone coming in and demanding that their religious beliefs be set on equal footing as my own. This statement comes from two sources in my life:
1) I used to go to church with my family. There were several members of the congregation that were devout. They were your classic bible thumpers. Now that's fine and all. But when one of them approached me and we started chatting and she found out that I really liked math and science in school, she asked if God was in my life. She also gave me a sad look, like I was a lost puppy or something. I was like WTF? I was also pissed that her version of how things should be, was something that she was trying to impose on me. (Same thing with the Christain people at the UW that like to hand out bibles and denounce various things, and say that those that don't believe in God will go to hell. To me, that's imposing your religious beliefs on me. I got pissed one time when a guy got right up in my face, and I told the guy to **** off. He started screaming that satan was leading me down a dangerous path and that I would burn in hell.)

Rediculous is what I call it.

2) The evolution debate. Personally, I could care less what someone believes about how the world was created or whatever. But what I find utterly revolting, and just plain pisses me off, is when someone comes in and wants to mandate that religious viewpoints, which have no basis on scientific fact, come in and try to put creationism on the same footing as evolution IN A SCIENCE CLASS! If the school wants to teach a religion class, or partner with a local religious school, then FINE! But keep science and religion separate, because the two are like water and oil.



I guess, in general, that my viewpoints rest on the simple fact that I absolutely HATE it when someone tells me how to believe. They're telling me where to put my faith. Well, I can tell them where to shove their faith. (No offense to anyone here that's of the preacher mindset. ) The other thing that I am conveying is that different sects of Christianity believe different things. In the Catholic Church, we are taught that God works through the preists and it is our duty to worship Him. We are also taught that God expects us to give a percentage of what we have to the Church. While in offshoots of the Lutheran Church, God and you have a personal connection. God will work through you.

I'm of the latter. And it's a result of seeing how corrupt the Catholic Church can be. And my personal beliefs also could be said to include some of the Native American philosophies that all things have a place and a balance, though not necessarily to the point that the rocks and trees have spirits or anything like that. Just that the Native Americans knew how to live WITH the land for the most part, and modern society in the US tries to control it. (Yes, you can kind of tell that I grew up in the Pacific Northwest, where the timber companies replant what they take, where water is conserved, where the people that like the outdoors try to maintain the natural beauty of the land, and where even though you may not necessarily be a tree hugger, you still have an appreciation for nature.)


For the record, I don't find practicing your faith offensive, it's when you attempt to cross the line and instill your faith on me (or on kids, who generally don't know better and should be taught by their parents). Even though I would call myself somewhat of a Christian, and on occasion, I'll have the urge to go to a Catholic Church, I would say that someone else telling me how and what to believe, and where to place my faith will get me riled up.



And back to the gay marriage thing....

As an example... and this may be discomforting to talk about... if you do anything BUT man+woman, penis-in-the-vagina sex, you are commiting sodomy. Yes, the definition of sodomy, includes things like anal sex and perverse things like sex with animals and stuff, but it also includes anything except sex between man and woman (minus man+woman anal sex, of course).

Anyways, there are several states that have laws against sodomy. Have you given or received oral sex? You're going to jail! Do anything even REMOTELY outside of penis-in-the-vagina, man on top or woman on top and you are doing sodomy.

I don't know how many men here have gone outside of that boundary (and I don't know that I want to know). But if you have, or if you could put yourself in that man's (or woman's) shoes, then you understand what it feels like to have someone else regulate what you do in your bedroom/desk/etc.

I find it interesting and funny that people want to regulate what others do in the privacy of their homes. And I find it interesting, funny, and revolting that people feel the need to keep others down when what they do with their lives has no impact on their own.



I do think there should be gay marriages or civil unions or whatever, and I think it is ABSOLUTELY necessary that those unions be recognized by the government and accorded the rights that such a union should receive. Hell, you get right down to it, and I suppose that one man could get a sex change to a woman, marry his boyfriend, then get the government's blessing. And you'd still have a man and a man.

As for marriage being a religious thing... yeah, I can definitely see that. And I think I agree with that particular word being reserved for a union blessed in a Church. But then I think about it and wonder what the different between a marriage and a civil union is outside of such a religious blessing.

[Gambit]

Whee! Ok, here we go.

First, let me apologize for the "bible thumping" types you seem to have run across. I'll mention this attitude later.

Secondly, if you believe that what a person is saying has no validity, then how are they imposing anything upon you? No one has a gun to your head, right?

Christian beliefs - I'll get back to that in a moment.

Evolution is a theory. It's not a law. You said in an earlier post that it exhibits the scientific method, but there are a number of respected folks in the scientific community who'd disagree with you, without needing to propose an alternate answer such as creation. BTW, I strongly disagree with your statement that science and religion is like oil and water. Why should they be? There is, after all, only one explanation of how we got here. Both science and religion can, and should, be on the side of truth and fact.
Yes, evolutionary theory should be taught, as a theory. And creation should be taught, as what a group of people believe. And when the kid asks the teacher about the beginning of life, the answer should be "I don't know." Just as there are mindless fanatics on the creation side of the issue, there are mindless fanatics on the evolution side who couldn't tell you why they believe it or address the issues any better.


Now then. Christian faith. You say you would call yourself "somewhat of a Christian". Based on what? The (almost exclusive) record we have of Christ's life is in the Bible. That Bible, and Christ's own words, repeatedly make the point that you're on one side or the other, and that fence-sitters are nauseating. You have either accepted His gift to you or you've not. Note that I'm not telling you what to believe - I'm telling you what the Bible says. Whether or not you accept that authority is up to you.

Today's "Christian" culture is, well, phony. Going to Christian church makes you a Christian like going to a garage makes you a car. Are there Christians there? Maybe. Are there people who call themselves such, but aren't? Pretty likely. Is it the duty of any man to get up in your face and scream that you're going to hell? Very, very unlikely. I say that because, y'know, God can use ANYthing! But that doesn't make it right. We're supposed to be loving! WWJD, and all. But, would you let someone you loved walk alone and unarmed into a dark alley where you know there's muggers? You would, at bare minimum, want to warn them, and you'd probably plead with them not to go, especially when one street down there's a nice, well lit and safe path. THIS is the kind of concern that should be shown when a Christian shares their faith, not "You stupid (bleep), don't go in there!"

You mentioned corruption in the church. You specified Catholic, but can apply anywhere. In short, men and their institutions are corruptible. That's why we need God, after all. When the layman can't or won't read the scriptures he's supposed to obey, that's a wonderful opportunity for the crook, isn't it? That's one reason Paul said we should follow no man but Christ alone.
We are supposed to give of ourselves and goods to the church, and the church is supposed to help those in need. The early Christians were almost communal!

Nature: Again, many places in the Bible, we are told to be good stewards of what we're given. That means responsible use of resources like trees, water, animals, and energy, among other things. Greed is also obviously to be avoided. (There's more verses about dealing with money than hell.) God would therefore seem, at least in this respect, to approve more of the naturalist than a money-grubbing corporate pirate, neh? But not if he's killing people who are chopping down trees.

Biblical references can be easily provided upon request.

[Kaleban]

Look its quite simple, and I'm just tired of reading these long posts.

1. Gay marriage. Doesn't affect anyone but the two being married. Whatever you term it, its no one's business but the two involved. Religious folks can opt not to allow gay marriage in THEIR house, but since most homosexuals aren't Bible-thumping Christians, that should also have no affect on them. Unfortunately, the country is controlled by Bible-thumpers, so the USA is effectively their house. And they have no respect for alternate viewpoints. Just go try and ask Zell Miller a poignant question, he might duel you.

2. Religion in schools. If it were up to me, I would say don't allow it. There are too many opportunities for religious fanatics to impose their own viewpoints (or force) on impressionable children. Religion should be taught in the home, according to the parent's own views, which allows children some freedom of expression and thought while at school. This of course would not apply to religious institutions and such. Now while some may argue that non-religious folks can also be fanatics, its more difficult to be fanatical about an ABSENCE of belief, than a surfeit of it.

3. Abortion. Whether you like it or not, a woman has control over her own body. That includes the life within it. If you make legislative or judicial sanctions on what a woman can do with her own body, than you might as well turn back the clock a century or so and treat women as property. Just so you all know, I knew a girl who got pregnant in high school, and guess what, she was a preacher's daughter. She was white. The father was Indonesian. Once the father found out, he took the day off from preaching fire and brimstone to get his daughter an abortion, he wouldn't have no "half-breed" in his house. The daughter comitted suicide about a month later. So much for the healing power of religion.

4. The Bible. Its a document written by men. A large-ish portion of it was written during the Dark Ages, to assist the church and feudal lords in controlling the downtrodden peasantry. Giving them a sliver of hope of release in the afterlife was an effective measure at keeping them on the lands of the lords. The Bible has also gone through multiple revisions, translations, and interpretations, there is pretty much no chance that ANY version of the Bible today reflects Christ's actual teachings. However, every kindergardner knows what Christ taught, simply "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." A simple rule, that all the parable and stories of the Bible cannot show. And it always amazes me that religious folks talk of "THE Bible" when in fact there are so many different types. Almost makes me wish for the Torah or Qu'Ran, at least those have only one printing and aren't fractured into many groups.

Lastly, as is always the case, religious folks won't entertain the notion that they're possibly wrong, and non-religious folks won't entertain the notion that logic CAN'T change a religious person's beliefs. Its an argument that will only be proved by death, which is ironic because than you can't report back! Anyways, good arguing with you guys, find peace and love, each in your own way, and "to hell" with anyone who tells you otherwise!

[Cerberus]

Um, I don't think anything in the Bible was written after AD 80 so thats what? 1000 years before the dark ages?

Gay marriages warp kids.

Abortion: A womans right to do with her body is when she chooses to have sex..
after she gets preggo... welp The baby is more important than she is.
The gray area? when a woman does not get to CHOOSE to have sex. RAPE/Insest.

Religion in schools? The School itself cannot place one above the other, thats the Constitution, but it can be allowed, thats in the Constitution also.

[Gambit]

For the sake of brevity, I'll only mention a couple of points Jester didn't.

US is NOT controlled by bible-thumpers. Else we wouldn't have legal abortions, murder, sex, and obscenities on TV and movies, and lots of other stuff.

EVERY religion of any size has factions. Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Mormons, everybody. The more popular it is, the more likely you'll find violent wackos who don't get it but want to use it for their own purposes - Muslim terrorists, "Christian" clinic-bombers, and so on. Wearing the same label doesn't make everyone alike.

Quite easy to be fanatical about atheism. Such a person might get riled up everytime someone mentions God, for example. It's the "anybody but" syndrome, like why some people voted for Kerry.

(Aha! Full circle, back to election results topic!)