A different perspective (long post)

[XMEN Ashaman DTM]

On Iraq: I think we should rebuild it like we did with Japan. There will be an occupation, there is no doubt about that. We won't turn our backs on the country, only to turn around and see a regime hostile to the US be put in place.
In regards to the military significance: it's great. We'll definitely have at least one base there. The Kuwaiti's are friendly enough with us that they allow us to use their land and airspace pretty much whenever we want. But they could still deny us that because they are a soveriegn nation. We would control Iraq for a few years at least, because they would require policing and protection.

In the meantime, Iraq poses a unique opportunity to show the muslim world what the US is like. Unless there are large elements that won't believe what they see when they visit Iraq.



In regards to you Laur, I have to say that I somewhat admire your conviction in pacifism. BUT! I'd also like to point out that as long as there are people like Saddam Hussein, who will take what they want when they can, there can't be a peaceful solution.

My question to you is: How can Saddam's regime fail through pacifism?

Saddam poses a direct threat to the US in several ways (turning the muslim world against us with nasty propoganda, oil, a desire to acquire nuclear weapons, and by drawing support of muslims that already hate us even though Saddam is a false muslim, and doing things to his own people while the rest of the world stands by). Saddam would have conquered the middle east if he could, and if the rest of the world did not step in. He went after Iran, and got into a stalemate, he launched attacks at Israel, invaded Kuwait and made of with women and money. He is the kind of person that eliminated any and all political threats when he started out.

We are spoiled here in the states and in Canada; especially compared to what goes on in other parts of the world. I admire president Bush for trying to fix many wrongs. (But that's probably a spin on the fact that the US feels threatened and is being proactive in its defense, and Bush's own morals showing.) But I have to agree that the way that Bush does foreign policy is scary and at times idiotic.

[Variable]

Well of course it would never work. That'd just be nice. I think we should do the same thing with Canada and Mexico, it doesn't mean we will or should. I'm a big fan of imperialism, thats all. Whatever the case, there will no doubt be a 'friendly' government set in place with advisors from several of the allied nations.

I think in the end I don't really care what the empires are. I'd like to see a unified Europe, its getting close to that. i'd like the Americas to coalesce into something greater, and I'd like to see some sort of actual unity in the Middle East and Africa. I think mankind is long past its need for governments, dictators and whatnot. Its time to move on to something bigger. once we can put petty differences behind us we'll be better for it. The way I see it some nations can come together peacefully the way Europe has, but two bit dictatorships or mock democracies will have to be pushed.

[XMEN Ashaman DTM]

Or kicked in the nads and beaten severely. But that's just my opinion.

[Xenocidez66]

Well Variable I was there in 91. (U.S. Airforce) and we were all stuned when it ended and we were outraged when there was no help for the uprisings in the North and South. I do agree with you. I am not nessaraly for this action but I don't see any other way. Its not like he was going to disarm on his own or leave power. Its a nessary evil and has to be done,

Laurelin, I have always enjoyed reading your posts and felt the same way in most cases. Except this one. This has to be done, one way or another this homicidle loon needs to go. God won't help. Only a bullet or 2,000lb bomb or 5,000lb GBU28 will fix the problem. In this case the following saying rings true.

Any problem can be fixed with the proper application on high explosives. Sadam needs to go. Any way possible.

If anyone questions the truth of Variable's first post in this thread I will tell you its all true, that and much more.

[Aluscia]

True Pacifism would win. Do you see the muslim world trying to kill people in Germany? France? By that, I mean above and beyond what little sects already exist in all free countries of the world. If the US went into situations with open-handed pacifism, offered a Marshall plan in exchange for disarmament, then I think the results would end up the same, minus any casualties caused by this conflict. Especially if the world chose to be the Police in Iraq, if the world chose to help point the way to peace, instead of superpowers throwing their weight around and ignoring mass appeals. Those are my convictions.

[Gambit]

How well does pacifism work on high school bullies? Saddam never grew up. His entire political career has been based on fear and intimidation.

You assume that Saddam is reasonable. Reasonable people don't set up rape camps. Reasonable people don't shoot from under a flag of truce.

The world had twelve years to decide to be police, or to find a peaceful solution. They didn't.

[Xenocidez66]

Laurelin you said "Especially if the world chose to be the Police in Iraq," Well the world had its chance. The UN fu**ed it up plain and simple. Now someone is doing something about it. Pacifism admitedly has its place. But this wasen't the time. It is to bad that it came to this but as I have said before. Bush Sr. messed it up in 91 and Jr. is covering dads a**. Sadam still HAS to go. One way or another, and in this case he will. Hopefully in a fireball

[Stang]

Im not going to get involved in this thread cuz like Kit says it can ruin friendships. You all have held your own though I have to say and have powerful beliefs, never let that go. And everyone is doing it without going directly to bash anyone for their beliefs. I Thank You all for doing that and keeping this civil.

I just want to say to Laurelin a few back you were talking about how we will be killing more Iraq innocent people than Saddam has ever. If you look how long Saddam has been in power Im sure he has killed 2 times more of his own people than we ever will. Hes just a sick man.

I totally see where you are coming from though Laurelin and you keep fighting for what YOU believe girl! Nobody is ever going to agree on this issue.

Now for ME TO POOP ON YOU!!! (a little lightining up mood )

[XMEN Ashaman DTM]

I heard an Iraqi say that Saddam is the kind of man that has the kind of people that takes whole families away at night, or cousins, or fathers and brothers, only they never return. He's also the kind of man that orderd an entire city of people be wiped out with mustard gas (not a pretty way to go!), becuase they didn't like having a dictator. This city had men, women, children, crippled, old, young and strong. All of them were gone in a few minutes.

Though I'll admit that removing Saddam is the goal of the war. It's not entirely because of his practices on his people. It's because the US has information that leads them to know that Saddam's regime is a direct threat to the US. And that alone is enough to remove him. It's not about American imperalism, or oil, or Iraqi people, or any of that.

I'm not sure that I've said this before, but I think that pacifism is a great belief. But one that can easily be abused by those that don't believe in it, or those that would take advantage of pacifists. Therefore, there has to be those that protect the pacifists. Otherwise, they will be slaughtered and the world will forget pacifism. That's a bleak picture, but it's the end result if there are those that will take advantage of a pacifist's inaction.

[Variable]

And if you're a pacifist and you are forced to kill a man with a spear because he kidnapped your sister you can become Aiel. And that'd be just super.


That one's for you Asha

[XMEN Ashaman DTM]

Funny that you mention that. The Aiel think the Tuatha'an are The Lost Ones. While the Tuatha'an think the Aiel are The Lost Ones. Interesting.

[Variable]

Yes indeed it is. Though this is really getting off the topic of the post I have to ask...did it ever go into why the Tuatha'an were pacifists? Or did it only go back to the Great Bore? I can't recall.

[XMEN Ashaman DTM]

It didn't go into why. Only that their beliefs were so strong that 10,000 Aiel stood singing to an insane male Aes Sedai as he destroyed them one by one, letting the last one sing for several hours before destroying him and himself.

I suspect that the world had forgotten war and there was no need for violence. Thus there was room for the Way of the Leaf to grow.


It's funny (weird, not haha), but I think of those Aiel that followed the Way as children. Not because they were pacifists, but because they could not defend themselves against a violent person. They were the Way. It wasn't a belief, religion, or anything like that. They believed that they were defined by the Way, and lived accordingly. Kind of like how I believe that I am an American... not becaue I have American beliefs, but because my beliefs make me American.

At least that's what I've found from my reading.


The Aiel are as you described. And what I said above is found in the same chapter as your description.
Although one of the Forsaken said something about the Aiel. Something like, "Who would have imagined?" That leads me to believe that the Aiel were always pacifists.

[Gambit]

The Aiel were the servants of the ancient Aes Sedai. Complete non-combantants. Before the breaking, there was advanced technology as well as the Power, and while there were some police types, there hadn't been a real war for quite a while. Then someone drilled the Bore...

You can find the most descriptive sections in the part where Rand is getting the dragons on his arms, in that city in the desert.

But anyway, the Aiel were incredibly, completely peaceful and devoted to serving the Aes Sedai.

[Atheist]

Umm... Gambit, I have an issue with what you say about making Iraqis pay for the war. This isn't *their* war per se, as both you and Var have mentioned. This is a war against an "evil" regime, one that kills its own people. This is a war against Mr. Hussein and his family personally (I'll include the people he actually takes care of as his family, generals and whatnot). Making the people, and the new government pay for a war that the US started is like saving a child from an abusive parent and then make that child pay you for it after all is said and done.

Assuming, of course, that you guys actually believe that the US is doing this out of the good of it's... collective heart.