Election Results

[PrincessAmy]

Wow!!! It's been a few days since Mr. Jester posted his post about his view on some things... I just had a chance to read it...and WOW...you go, honey!!!

[Steele]

Asha...

But that's the thing. You are putting your religious beliefs onto another person. IMO, that is a VERY wrong thing to do!

no I'm not. I am putting my religious beliefs into my decision...if Gay Marriage was allowed I would still disagree with it but hey, I would go on living my life...Again, as long as I am given a chance to vote I will cast my ballot against it...I do not see that as pushing my faith on someone else...I could say that you or someone else is pushing your beleifs on me because I don't support gay marriage...

If the shoe were on the other foot I would agree that it would indeed suck...seem unfair...or even unjust...but I'd have to live with it...I don't know whatelse I can say to that...

the Prayer thing I agree with you on...personally I am OK with prayer at work, meetings, school ect...

you Know regardless of one's stand on Bush and his Christian Agenda...I would argue that this is not just a Christian thing...Islam, Judaism, Mormonism, for instance are other faiths that condem Homosexuality...I would argue that the majority of Americans would not support a law to leagalize Gay marrige...is that fair? I don't know? Leave that to the Supreme Court...

In short, if you base your moral values on religion, that's fine. But realize that people don't share the same morals.

I agree. if I make my decisions based on my moral values don't say I'm pushing my faith on other people...if so don't ask me for a decision...

[Gambit]

BTW, here's a series of pictures with text of the ten commandments monument from Alabama that was so in the news recently. I suggest that people read the quotes thereon from our founding fathers before talking about "separation of church and state" and similar issues.

http://www.morallaw.org/monument.htm

[Cerberus]

Yes, well, as I have said earlier, seperation of church and state as written in the Constitution means the US Government will not have an Official Religion. The problem lies in assumption. If you allow Prayer in school's, then people ASSUME that the government is favoring one religion over another. When in reality, they are allowing Freedom of Religion, and Freedom of Speach. The real deal is, if you don't like it, don't listen to it. If you don't want to see it, don't watch it. I am also not a big fan of censorship. Of course we need to have legal boundries, but, radio, tv, I mean, language.. I don't approve of foul language, but I also don't approve of the Government bleeping it out. What I approve of Is strong Parenting establishing moral values in their Children to turn that Trash off! It's not going to go away if we hide/ignore it, but if we teach it away, then it will decline.

Should we allow prayer in school? Absolutely, Prayer should be allowed everwhere. Just as a Nursing Mother should be allowed to Nurse when the Baby is hungry. Should we require Children of different faiths to remain seated or stay in the vicinity, absolutely not. Should we call Christmas Christmas? YES! Every other country in the world has a religion that is predominant, the people not of the dominant faith deal with it becuase thats their country they were born there. Our country is a melting pot. We are predominently Judeo/Christian. Guess what if you come to the US chances are you're going to see some Christians. Quite frankly don't try to tell me when and where to pray Jesus tells us to pray constantly, thats what I'll do!

[XMEN Ashaman DTM]

One thing to point out... and you guys are going to hate me for this....

The "Laws of nature and of nature's God" quote stems from the fact that many of the founding fathers were naturalists and believed that nature is something to work with, not control. These thoughts on nature led to the trancendentalists in following years. (I kid you not!)

As for the pledge quotes, those weren't added until the '50s to counter the "Red Threat" of communism which dictated that there could not be a religion. It was decided in that decade that "In God We Trust" and "under God," would be added to the government's official seals and pledge of allegiance to show how un-communist the US was.

The quotes from Mason and Madison were also a dividing issue in the formation of the government. Remember that the colonists had in some part left England due to it's very tight integration of church and state. Franklin was a large force against putting strong religious language into the documents that they worked to create. But it was decided that the quotes should stay because they represented some parts of the colonists' beliefs and it could be argued that the statements were not overly aggressive.


How I know these things? I studied the Constitution as part of my American Literature class in college. Taking things in context made for very interesting reading. And the forming of those first documents was done with a lot of argument and compromise... which is how it's still done today.

[Cerberus]

nope don't hate you!

[XMEN Ashaman DTM]

Sweet!

Jester, here's my take on prayer in schools:

If it's allowed, then that's fine. Then ALL religious views have to be expressed. If there are Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Atheists, or whatever in the class, then each of their religious practices should be given equal weight.

The simple reason is that no single religion should be given precedence over another, with the obvious condition that only the represented religions should be represented. Too often in college, I would hear other students come in and ask if anyone wanted to go pray. That's fine... but if you extend that situation to elementary school, and say you have a couple of devout people that pray every hour... where do you draw the line? Is the entire school day going to be spent in prayer?

I am not against prayer in schools. I am against schools allowing prayer and the people in those schools only doing one religious practice while the other, not-that-religion kids are left in the corner. Say letting Christians pray, but denying a Muslim their chance to do their requisite number of prayers throughout the day.

I guess I'm saying that you either have to disallow ANY prayer whatsoever in schools (misperceptions or no), or you have to allow EVERY religious practice. And there is no gray area because there are so many different religions.

And the great thing about the US is that as an American, I can practice whatever religious faith I wish. I don't have to live with it (or without), even if the majority religion is Christianity. I am free to practice how I wish. In many countries that have a national religion, that is not the case.


Oh and Jester: you guys MIGHT be getting some new toys. If you know which things I am talking about, I hope they work well! (There are a couple of things that are going into operational testing... and HPMs would be one that is public.) Part of my job is staying current on certain kinds of weapons.

[Gambit]

I guess I'm saying that you either have to disallow ANY prayer whatsoever in schools (misperceptions or no), or you have to allow EVERY religious practice.

I'd have to agree with you - as far as "official" positions are concerned. But institutions cross a line when they say a student can't go pray by the flagpole, or over their lunch, or whatever. And, you know, there are a lot of places these days where it's perfectly acceptable to say "Happy Hannukah" or Kwanzaa or whatever, but if you say "Merry Christmas" people start to complain. Stuff like that REALLY gets the Christian folks worked up, and it should - don't you think?

[XMEN Ashaman DTM]

I totally agree Gambino. If you say the other stuff, you should be able to say "Merry Christmas". Stupid PC bastards.

And I would agree that a student should be able to worship on their own time. My thing is when school time is taken up doing prayer, and when that prayer time only covers the majority (which in most schools is Christianity of one flavor or another).



I've got more to say, but I won't be able to state it here for a few days. I'm going to be busy with RL stuff.

[Cerberus]

Oh yeah, taking time out from class that multi religious people are invovled in would be wrong if it was predominately one.
I agree that prayer should be allowed anytime, but I am not talking about special pre class prayer groups, those should be done in the 5 minute window between class. Do you see where I am going? I don't agree with banning prayer out right. Plus when I say Merry Christmas I am expressing my faith, not pushing it on you. So get over it! I'm gonna say Merry Christmas. If I was talking to a Jew I might just say Happy Hannukah. Don't think I would say happy Kwanza tho .. what is that?

[Cerberus]

994

[Cerberus]

995

[Cerberus]

996 some of you may remember this as the you got lagged out from Tribes

[Cerberus]

997

[Cerberus]

998