bush's need for WWIII

[yak]

the U.S. just started off the war by attacking Iraqi artillery as well as some of the short range missiles that have enough range to strike u.s. troops. In my opinion, in a few months the world will be uninhabitable, becuase World War Three will begin. Right Now, the U.S. has only a couple of allies, the rest of the world hates them.

if you ask me one of the reasons that the U.S. is so screwed up, is because it is being run by a BUSH, a DICK, and a COLIN.

what is everyone else's opinion.

[Stang]

One thing Ive learned about talking on the boards is not to talk about Politics with close friends cuz everyone has a different opinon and things just get out of control and everyone just gets mad and then its no fun. So Ill reply just this once since I rarely respond to these politics topics.

Im in the middle about everything. I dont think this is a cause for war but I think Saddam needs to leave or die, just like Bin Laden.

I wonder why do we have the U.N. when its there job to do this kinda stuff, like disarm countries, when the US is just going to override them and do what we want? Explain to me if you can plz so I can understand.

The US doesnt need to control everyone, worry about whats going on in our country first. If another country asks for assistance then work on a way to help them. Every country is different and they dont need to be like us, thats what makes this world interesting. Different cultures not all the same. We d/l the movie "Bowling For Columbine" and it looks interesting. I saw one clip and it says we have the highest rate of gun killings, over 11,000 a yr. as other countries were only in the double digits. Isnt that something we need to work on? Kinda sad we die more by our own people in the US than any other country.

This war should have been handled 12 yrs ago when it arose. Not war but taken over and not let it gotten this bad.

I have so many things going thru my head and I hope things work out in the end and the right thing is done. And that our men and women dont die in vain or anyone in that matter.

Again lets not get into an arguement here just express your feelings and lets see were it goes.

[Gambit]

IMO, Saddam's been asking for it. He doesn't recognize the "no-fly-zones" that were set up to protect minorities among his own people, and often fires on US and UK planes that patrol those areas.

He's a fiend, simply put, and if you don't believe me look up information on his biography.

Not that that in itself is cause for a war. The reason for war is that he's ignored UN demands time and time again, he's got outlawed weapons and has used them multiple times, and in the present, terrorist-heavy world it would amaze me if some of his anthrax, VX, and the like didn't get into the hands of Al Queda or other groups like them.

The original Gulf War never really ended - the cease-fire was conditional upon his disarmament. Do you honestly think he's disarmed? And thus we resume what should have been finished long ago, that we halted in the first place because of pressure from the same groups that said, "Sure, give Hitler Austria, France, and Poland. He won't need any more."

So in short, you won't need to worry about WWIII just yet. But if you leave Saddam in there you might have to worry about smallpox in New York or L.A. or London. And THAT could theoretically kill a third of the country, and make no distinction whatsoever between military and civilians.

And lest you be thinking of the cost in human life from a humanitarian standpoint, don't forget that because of international sanctions and Saddam's refusal to put the welfare of his people above his military developments and palaces, Iraqis are starving every day. (I heard one pundit quote a 5,000/day casualty rate.) The US food and medical airdrops which accompany our war planes would be quite welcome to these folk. You think Saddam would feed anyone like that?

[Gambit]

Here's more, from a Brit no less. http://pub141.ezboard.com/fxmenclanxmengamingclan.showMessage?topicID=4127.topic

[Aluscia]

I refuse to weigh in on this, because I've been harping/fuming about it from the onset, with resolution 1441.

[Xenocidez66]

Ahhh I was there 12 years ago. Plain and simple Bush senior fu**ed it up the first time.

I don't nessarly agree with what is going on but I will have to admit I a pleased that someone told the "Useless Nations" to blow them selves. Its about time that the UN gets stuffed by their own inability to act on their own resoultions. Now look at where its goten them for all the idle crap that they have spoken in the past.

Personaly I think that france should be next.

[XMEN Ashaman DTM]

Yeah. Just on the basis of them stalling over Iraq while trying to milk that 60 billion oil investment deal, while the Iraqis are starving and being kept from seeing or hearing anything but, "Saddam is good. US is evil."

[Aluscia]

Beware what your media tells you. It works both ways, I'm sorry to say. It's part of the reason why I'm glad I don't watch CNN.

[Spinning Hat]

You don't have to watch CNN. There are plenty of news services out there. Personally, I hate CNN.

[Gambit]

One reason the internet is nice: I can read www.cnn.com or english.pravda.ru or www.rushlimbaugh.com just as easily. :)

The other side of that coin is you can always find someone who agrees with your own opinions - which can lead to awfully rigid thinking and loss of honest evaluative skills if you're not very careful.

[XMEN Ashaman DTM]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/afp/20030324/ts_afp/iraq_war_us_russia&e=3&ncid=

Damn Russians.

[Aluscia]

Right.... how many weapons from American firms are in the hands of Third-World dictators? That's including Saddam's army. Is the American government powerful enough to control its own free enterprise?

[Gambit]

Laur, if someone told Uncle Sam that, say, Lockheed was selling F16 components to the Chinese without the government's explicit OK, they'd bring an awful lot of pressure to bear on LH and it would stop. The key is how important the issue is to our government. Not much they could do about stuff already out there, but they could choke the supply.

With Russia, the issue may be a lack of information or lack of control of the situation since the collapse of the Soviet Union, a deliberate thing, or it may just be a lassez-faire attitude. In most cases, I think they could do something about it if they wanted to.

I did notice that Russia is a little upset because they think some of our spyplanes are flying too close to their airspace, though. Hmm... A tool of statecraft? :)

[XMEN Ashaman DTM]

It's not about weapons. It's about the fact that a GPS jammer does no good to the Iraqi people when that guided bomb hits the wrong building because it can't get a signal.
Saddam probably had ordered hospitals and schools built next to military installations, because in the previous conflict we didn't have weapons with consistently as high precision. So we would bomb an area near a target on a run. Not very fun for the people near the target. So when that 2000 lb bomb hits a hospital because of a lost GPS signal, it's the Russians fault.

Trying to make a buck at any cost, especially to others, is highly unethical.

[Xenocidez66]

Laurelin, your comment is to be understood. Most people that haven't been in or outside the military don't understand private business and military contracts. Sure Beoing makes 747's they also make F-15E Strike Eagles, and A/F-18 Hornets. Lockheed makes some fantastic civilian aircraft but also has several Military contracts.

Both of these companys sell their military aircraft to other countries but only under the conscent of the military, and other countries cannot order the same aircraft that the United States uses. If a company did they would loose more than just the military contract but the company would be put out of busniess very quickly. Military contracts are highly prized items and have many clauses.

Not just anyone can get this stuff. As for the Russians, their government dosen't controll anything. Their military hasen't been paid in years. The Russian mob controlls the country and ANYTHING is for sale in Russia. I would be suprised if there wasen't a Russian nuke somewhere in Iraq, but even Sadam isn't crazy enough to pull that move. I am sure that the Russian government didn't have anything to do with it and they are totaly in the dark. But I am sure that someone with mob connections did.

This is all really sad what is going on and it gets a little worse every day. Because of the tactics that Iraq is using look for growing numbers of civilian casualties as the Alied nations are forced to fire to save their lives and the human shields become just that.

[Aluscia]

"When a 2000 lb bomb hits a Hospital because of a lost GPS signal, it's the Russians' fault." Yes.... But who fired the bomb, knowing that there are GPS scramblers at work? I'm not defending the Russians' error in selling arms to Iraq. I'm simply trying to get you to see that the finger that pulls the trigger on that bomb is just as responsible for who dies as the people who are trying to deflect the bombs. Are you going to deny that American manufactured arms are in the hands of people just like Saddam (and including Saddam)?

[XMEN Ashaman DTM]

Nope. I'm not. But the tone of your argument was scathing towards the Americans and somewhat neutral towards the Russians.

[Gambit]

I'm simply trying to get you to see that the finger that pulls the trigger on that bomb is just as responsible for who dies as the people who are trying to deflect the bombs.

I see - well, here's a hypothetical situation for you, assuming that I'm with some fictional terrorist organization.

Let's say that I take a group of hostages. Then me and my men successfully take over, say, a chlorine plant in the middle of a city, and threaten to release the lethal gas unless we get our way. What are you going to do? Pay my ransom or release my political prisoner friends - negotiate with terrorists, knowing that you're letting yourself in for a lot more trouble down the road (because if it works others will do it and you just gave us back members), and with no guarantee I won't gas the city anyway? Are you going to send in a SWAT team to "take us out", knowing that you'll kill some hostages in the process but save the city? On whose head are those dead hostages? Mine, or yours?

There's a reason those Iraqi military facilities are built next to hospitals and temples and schools - it's because Saddam wants to use his people for human shields, so that when/if they are attacked, he can say "See! The evil West is killing our poor civilians!" The man is filth.

[Aluscia]

Take the path of peace. Offer the best thing possible, release of one prisoner at a time or something, and bargain until (hopefully) all are alive. Of course, the onus is still on you and I if they all die. I didn't say it was fair, or that the people pulling the trigger were trying to kill civilians, or didn't care. I'm just saying that the process hasn't been thought through carefully enough, again because war isn't an answer. I'm saying that the active choice to pull the trigger, knowing that you may hit a hospital, leaves you with the responsibility of what happens.

[Aluscia]

Saddam is evil, no doubts (Sorry, didn't want to let your comment go by without assent, lest someone accuse me of defending him *shudder*). As for the construction of military compounds next to Hospitals and Mosques, if no one were attacking the compounds with "precision" weaponry, then there would be no error, right? Saddam isn't above killing his own people, perhaps, but the US isn't above hitting targets close to civilians.

[Gambit]

You seem to be saying you want peace at any price. I can't condone that - some things are worse than war.

[Aluscia]

I want peace without a price. I want piece through giving and understanding, not taking and killing. Capitalism doesn't allow for giving, at least without some economic bonus attached to it. This is what my beliefs are. This is why I'm against the Man.

[Gambit]

Ah, you hippie! ;) j/k

I'm not ENTIRELY cynical, but obviously human nature is not there yet. Else we wouldn't have folks like Saddam. And the problem is that such a transition must be made by all or it can be made by none, as those without a "giving and understanding" nature will always take advantage of those who do.

[Xenocidez66]

And Sadam is full of giving and understanding??? Yeah right. My big fat hairy a** he is. Sure he is giving, to his family members and people that think the way he does, and he gives to those that don't as well except thats a little diffrent. I don't want his present of VX nerve gas or anthrax and I am sure that the Kurds in 91 didn't either.

Sure Sadam is understanding. As a brick in the face. Its to bad that bombs are falling and that he is giving his military equipment to block gps signals so the bombs DO hit the Hospitals, and schools that are next to comand structures. Sure Sadam has understanding. He understands how to manipulate and controll the western media so that he shines and everyone forgets the terrible things that he has done. Prety smart in a twisted terroist sort of way isn't it. I would hope that you don't think this way if they catch Osama. Maybe we should just give him a slap and tell him not to do it again.

Sadam has to go. To bad its being done in this maner but when a leader is telling his millitary to load women and childern in to a bunker and then shoots at you from it is a terrible monster that needs to go. It is a great thing that I am not in the position of comand. I would of course feel sorry for the civilians but the bunker would be a crater. I do have a great respect for the military and their restraint in these situations.

So which is the greater evil and remember the UN's inability to act or keep up the end of its own resolutions caused most (not all) of this.

[yak]

the us would not have to worry about hitting a hospital if we didnt put our noses into other peoples business. what ever you do, dont watch american based news companies, because of the government's cencorship and psychological warfare. most of the casualties have been from american stupidity, like the two apache helicopters that crashed into each other, or the british plane that was shot down by AMERICAN patriot missle batteries.
WHO NEEDS ENEMIES WHEN YOU HAVE AN ALLIE LIKE THE UNITED STATES.

[Gambit]

Oh, let's not forget the British plane that fired on a Patriot battery. :)

[Gambit]

Ah, more breaking news. Iraqi terrorists! Whodathunkit!

http://dailynews.attbi.com/cgi-bin/news?e=pri&dt=030328&cat=news&st=newsiraqusaarrestsdc

[Gambit]

http://www.fortune.com/fortune/investing/articles/0,15114,438836,00.html

On the subject of prohibited goods, US and other, in Iraq.