Election Results

[Cerberus]

ok..
lets get it rolling here cause I have been thinking of my response to pen here..
Laur, I have known you for a long time, and I care for your soul which is why I am going to write this. I am not judging you. And since you are a Christian I am going to use scripture that I have read from the Bible. You should know that God did not make you a homosexual, but that you do have free will. Everything we do in life is a choice, basically between weather to sin or not. You are living in Sin.

A previous argument made about this sin versus that sin, In Gods eyes all sin is the same, being in a little sin, is like being a little pregnant. And believe me we are ALL sinners. The only thing I am trying to accomplish here is not to tell you that homosexuallity is a sin, becuase there is really no argument there, it's clear in the Bible that it is. What I am trying to do is get you to acknowledge your sin, because I have the impression that you do not. And until we acknowledge that we are sinners, we can not be redeemed.

Ok while it does say that All Scripture is Usefull for Teaching and Rebuking,
The Blood of the New Covenant, which is to say The Christian Covenant washes away the old law, and ushers in a law in our hearts and minds, guided by the holy spirit that dwells with in us.
So if you don't like how it's plainly spelled out in Leviticus that Homosexual behavior is a sin. Then I'll direct your attention to Romans, specifically the chapter on Gods Wrath against Mankind, where Homosexual behavior is called a perversion, and to support it, is also named as a sin. The current thread among especially a group of Episcopalians (sp?) is that Jesus did not say it's wrong, so it's ok. They suggest that there is no authority in scripture.
The Bible is a package deal. All Scripture is Authoritative. The Apostle Paul was called specifically by the Lord Jesus Christ, the other twelve Apostles recognized this. (Read Acts) That being said, all of Paul's books are breathed of God. That means that if Paul said it, God said it. Becuase Paul always referred to himself as a Slave of Christ we can tell that he was doing exactly the will of God, in everything thing he did or wrote, how can a slave do otherwise.
Paul was Christ's emissary to the Gentiles (non jews) so he speaks on all of these issue's about OT vs NT. I would suggest that you read all of Pauls letters. Hebrews is also a good example of OT vs NT.
So I recommend reading Romans (the Leviticus of the NT) and Hebrews.


and just a side note, to all those arguing about wether or not we should or should not have invaded, at this point it doesn't really matter does it.
Well I can tell you it doesn't, I have been sitting here 8 months now in Baghdad, and it doesn't matter a damn bit.
We're here. We removed a brutal dictator, oh and let me give you an example of the country some of you would have had us leave be. One of our interpreters, his car broke down on the freeway. While he was walking to the next gas station, he was arrested. This was under the Saddam regime. Becuase he didn't have the money to bribe the local cops, he spent 30 days in jail for a car on the side of the freeway. Do you want to know what the jail cell was like, you do good i'll tell you.
ALL RED. the whole thing. The only color Fuad was allowed to see for 30 was red. Red food, Red walls, Red sheets, Red bed, Red Floor. Spend some time in a one color room see if it's fun. And why becuase his car broke down. So tell me that the Saddam regime needed to stay in power? I don't think so. Are we mired down in this country now? YUP. we sure are. Blame that one where blame is due, RUMSFELD! theres a guy that needs to Go. President Bush did exaclty as a President is supposed to do. Assign the mission, let the Military leaders accomplish the mission. The only thing Bush is doing wrong right now, is not Firing Rumsfeld. So let me get something else clear about Sin, the reason the world does not like us, is becuase We are a moral light in the world and it hurts thier faces. Sinners do not like to let go of their Sin.

have a nice day.

[Steele]

Kal I disagree with sumthin you said...

I try to live my life by two basic rules:

Treat others the way you wish to be treated.
Always attempt to put yourself in another man's shoes (figuratively) before making any opinions/judgements.

I agree

The people that voted for Bush, and fervently support him, banning of gay marriage, banning of stem cell research, continuing an unjust war, etc., etc. simply do not understand nor follow these two basic precept.

I Disagree...that statment is as judgmental as those who would accuse me of being Judgmental towards Gay Marriage because I voted for Bush...I do not and will not ever support Gay marriage...I think it is wrong...I took my vows before God and my wife...I do not believe God approves of a marriage between a man and a man...I beleive this was not the way God designed things...

Now one could say I am being judgmental and I would say to them that they are being as equally jugdmental of me...that is why we vote...should the Issue of same sex marriage be brought to a vote? I dunno...but if it is I will vote against it...If it is determined that it is not up to the voters to decide such an issue well then I'll still think it is wrong...and I'll get on with my life...I have many Gay and Lesbian Friends...I think their lifestyle is wrong...I still love them though and call them my Friends...they know how I feel...sorry to pick on this one issue however it is one that struck a chord with me...

This I know for sure:

1. there is a God
2. I am not Him
3. when our time on earth here is done I/we won't have to debate any of this
4. I know where I am going to spend eternity

[XMEN Ashaman DTM]

One thing I'd like to add is this:

In the Constitution, it states that one of the rights of the people is "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." That would be in the Bill of Rights, I believe.

Well....


Couldn't it be argued that gay-marriage bans infringe on the Constitutional right to the pursuit of happiness? The marriage is between two consensual adults. Their own belief systems (and yours) should have no part in how they live their lives. And it should have no say when it comes to infringing the rights guaranteed by the Constitution. I believe that if the pro-gay-marriage folks wanted to contest state laws banning gay marriage, that they would have a VERY solid argument based on the Constitution.



Here's my take on the religion versus state thing:


I believe very deeply that religion is a personal thing. I also believe that my personal beliefs can NEVER dictate how another person lives their life, except when how they live their life infringes on someone else. It's a bit interesting to look at my own beliefs, but I firmly believe that since I choose to live in the United States, that the Constitution is the guiding document of principles for ALL citizens. My own personal religious beliefs CAN'T supercede the Constitution, because my personal religious beliefs are my own.

THAT is what scares the bejeezus out of me when Bush states things like a "gay marriage ban". And I can understand why he would push for an amendment... which is something that is unlikely to occur. But I call him an idiot for never understanding that America is America because of the fact that each person can have their own religious beliefs; even religious beliefs that involve such things as animal sacrifice. I'm not a fan of animal sacrifice (it's a waste in my mind, and serves no purpose other than making a mess and satisfying the slaughterer's desire for the adrenaline rush associated with the kill... taking lives, especially in a bloody mess would put adrenaline in pretty much anyone's bloodstream). I realize that animal sacrifice, if done humanely, satisfies a religious belief, and causes little pain and suffering to the sacrificial animal. It doesn't harm anyone. Yet it's still against my personal beliefs. Yet I would NEVER impose my belief on someone else. I'm all about killing animals for food though (just to make it clear that I am not against killing animals).


You see... in the kind of "moral" government that Bush and his Republican friends are trying to bring to law would outlaw that kind of religious practice.



And here's another example: prayer at work. I'm a government employee, and there is the whole separation of church and state thing. Plus there are my personal beliefs on prayer (it's personal to me... shouldn't be shared with others).

Yet, I've been to two meetings where the meeting was started with a prayer. I mean, WTF!!?!????!!!? When did the US government become a theocracy? I'm more than likely going to walk out of the next meeting that does that. That kind of thing has NO place. It's not just me either. I could see two people who looked to be of Indian origins that were definitely uncomfortable.

Yet, I know for a fact that Bush sees no problem with starting a meeting with a prayer. That's not right, IMO.

[SiFi]

Thanks for quoting me, steele. It's nice to know that my words aren't totally unfounded.

[Aluscia]

I'm speechless. I guess I'll see you in hell, SiFi

[Cerberus]

Well, as the constitution is written, the seperation of church and state means, that the US government will not have an official religion, not that it will pretend religion doesn't exist.

[Steele]

Asha I agree with what you said:

I believe that if the pro-gay-marriage folks wanted to contest state laws banning gay marriage, that they would have a VERY solid argument based on the Constitution.

I agree 100%. this being based on the US Constitution...Based on the Bible...well you know where I stand...What I object to is being called "Judgemental" because I do not support a certain issue or lifestyle because of my beleifs...

I'm not a fan of animal sacrifice.....I realize that animal sacrifice, if done humanely, satisfies a religious belief, and causes little pain and suffering to the sacrificial animal. It doesn't harm anyone. Yet it's still against my personal beliefs. Yet I would NEVER impose my belief on someone else. I'm all about killing animals for food though (just to make it clear that I am not against killing animals).

OK...I agree with part of this here...suppose Joe Blow congressman, senator, or President wanted to leagalize Animal sacrifice...it does not harm anyone, does not hurt you...however you personally do not agree with it as you have said...suppose you are now asked by the Pro-animal sacrifice group to support with your vote...how would you vote? I look at the Gay marriage thing in the same light...yeah it does not hurt me...it does not directly affect the way I go about living my life...but as long as I have a choice I am going to choose no...

Cerberus said:

Well, as the constitution is written, the seperation of church and state means, that the US government will not have an official religion, not that it will pretend religion doesn't exist.

Well then be married, dedicated, or whatever in the eyes is the US Government then...not in the eyes of God...I will still vote against this if given the opportunity to vote on it...

Laurelin:

I'm speechless. I guess I'll see you in hell,

Who said yer going to hell? I hope you don't think myself or anyone else here is attacking you because you are Gay...I just disagree with your viewpoint...I hope you understand that...

Tim

[SiFi]

It is better to be at the right hand of the devil than in his path, but better yet to eliminate him and actually get the whole end of the world thing on track. ; )

[Stang]

Its good to see that we are all mature enough around here and can discuss this type of issue and not get out of control here. Thanks guys!

Frustrating at times but everyone has good points even if we don't all agree on things.

[Gambit]

Asha said:

Yet, I've been to two meetings where the meeting was started with a prayer.

You WHAT!?! Wow. I sure wouldn't expect that on a government job! In a private company, it's unusual but hardly unheard-of. As a Christian, of course, I would heartily support praying before a meeting - however, what if the guy saying the prayer was (since you mentioned Indian) Hindu? I'd sure not be participating. Not sure what I WOULD do, though there are several options. I also am not a fan of putting someone in that position without at least asking, in a secular environment like the workplace.

BTW - I thought the pursuit of happiness thing was in the Declaration of Independence?

You're absolutely right when you say "My own personal religious beliefs CAN'T supercede the Constitution, because my personal religious beliefs are my own," though I would add that they can supercede the Constitution for an individual internally. But they can and should guide your decisions, whether or not you're holding public office. Your religion is part of who you are - if it's a mask that you put on or take off depending on what you're doing, what good is it? But if you neglect the duties and responsibilities of your public office (defend the constitution, etc.) in favor of your religious beliefs then you shouldn't be in that office. And yes, I'll direct that to the current office-holder as well.

I'm glad we're getting some more participation here. Thanks, Laur, because you brought up a normally highly inflammatory issue, and people saw no flames from any direction, I think they were encouraged to jump in. I hope you're not feeling picked on, but if you are then I sincerely apologize.
We're all friends here (I hope ) and friends should be able to disagree without shattering the friendship - else it wasn't much to start with, eh?

No, SiFi, your words were never ignored. There was just this massive volume of other stuff, y'know?

[Stang]

No picking on my Laurilen .

Yes the sexuality was used but I'm glad I've grown to know Laurelin. He is a great person, same with Kitzune. I don't think of what they do in the bedroom I look at what we have been thru together. I mean it would be the same I don't want to know what any of you guys do in your bedroom . I guess I just don't see why people look at someone and judge them for what they do as a couple and not what the people themselves are all about. It was scary at first but then I got to know them and it has opened my eyes even more. Im glad Laurelin and Kitz are in my life.

I know you guys aren't going after Laurelin personally I just felt like I needed to say what I have experienced and my opinion. I don't get into these discussions much just cuz I don't know how to express my side of things very well and others say it better than me. But I do like to read them and see what everyones thoughts are. As it has opened my mind on some things too.

[SiFi]

hehehe. I never thought my words were being ignores, I did actually feel that the discdussion was moving out of my area of knowledge. Witness my small posts vs your guys novellas : P

[Gambit]

Hey, brief is good!

[Steele]

lets not get to talkin about Gryphon's Underwear...that will really make this thread go places we don't wanna go

[XMEN Ashaman DTM]

Steele: animal sacrifice is definitely a legal religious practice, performed by a small sect of the Catholic Church (for one, there are two other examples of religions that do this, but I can't recall them). Human sacrifice is not, for obvious reasons.


The point I'm making is this:

Steele:

I agree 100%. this being based on the US Constitution...Based on the Bible...well you know where I stand...What I object to is being called "Judgemental" because I do not support a certain issue or lifestyle because of my beleifs...

But that's the thing. You are putting your religious beliefs onto another person. IMO, that is a VERY wrong thing to do! That's the whole point! That's why I have a problem with prayer before a meeting. How I practice my religious beliefs is of no concern to someone else, as long as I can do my job and I don't hurt anyone. To me, participating in a prayer before a meeting with people I hardly know, performing a prayer in a way that is offensive to me, is something that I can't tolerate. After that experience, I can relate to what people feel with the whole gay-marriage issue... it's like you are being squeezed into a box with a vise.

That's also why I have a HUGE problem with things like putting the ten commandments up on government property, calling a meeting to order with a prayer, or acting on your beliefs when they are not harming you. Basically, all of that is putting one person's religious views onto another.


Some examples of other places that religion doesn't belong:
-Giving creationism equal weight to evolution. One demonstrates exactly how the scientific method works; the other has a basis on a book composed centuries ago by people that could have altered the words or put the book together in a way that furthered their views on how things should be. And to a great extent, I would say that a literal interpretation of creationism should NOT have equal footing with evolution because there is no science behind it... God created everything; that's it. Biology is a science class, not a religion class!

-People who tout their own views on how to live their lives, and then condemn those that do not conform to their veiws. (Southern Baptists, anyone?)

-People that want to say prayers in schools. I definitely don't want my kids to worship God/Budda/Brahma/whatever with me having no say. And I certainly don't want them to be teased because they have to be pulled away while the other kids do the prayer stuff.




In short, if you base your moral values on religion, that's fine. But realize that people don't share the same morals.



And Steele: if you vote for a gay-marriage ban, then more power to you. It's your vote. I'm only asking, what if the situation were reversed? What if something that you do in your personal life became illegal? And what if you were denied the benefits of marriage (you and your wife), because a majority of folks joined a new religion that said it was better to have no spouses, only concubines? And what if they were offended that you should call your monogamous union a marriage?