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Old 12-03-2004, 04:38 PM   #16
Ravok99
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*grins* My only comment now is the only Heaven comment. If there was only heaven and there is a no harm no foul agreement between God and Satan - then any action on the earth can be completely justified. Murdering innocents, torture, there is nothing under the sun that won't eventually take you into heaven, and so actions in this life become completely meaningless.

No, Satan directly opposes God and seeks to overcome him and take control of the creation and beyond. He wants the whole pie for himself, and is desperately jealous that he is not in control. God has taken actions to aid those innocents within his kingdom, and to bring others into a better understanding over the creation.

Satan attempted to say that we, as humans, could be like gods. We took the apple with part of that temptation in mind. For this, serpents now crawl on their bellies, women bear pain in childbirth (due to a premature birth complex IMHO), and death entered into the human condition. As a part of creation that have been continually tempted to rise into a power equal to God's, we have a track record of problems.

A place of wheeping and gnashing of teeth, where Satan holds pure dominion, is his jail cell and his hell until the Lord finishes His work with the old serpent. Do not believe for a moment that God is on any agreement terms with Satan. God is merciful, and is allowing the work to be complete, and once all is done, Satan will destroyed and will be a forgotten part of the creation. He will no longer exist.

What powers Satan has now are near his last. It is a battlefield as much as any war among human beings, and those that follow that serpent into destruction will be no more.

Being unmade is a frightening prospect. I have come very close to it in my own personal experience. It means that there is nothing, only a full and complete death. When the Lord takes this action, it is in His wisdom to do so.

I won't explain all of what I have studied here, only that my God stands in judgement over the hearts of His creation. Only He holds that position, and Christ is our benefactor, and the Holy Spirit is our guide. When I finish my work in this life, I will have a serious time in prayer with God, His Son, and my own spirit. I have a petition to make before the Lord passes His judgement upon me.

That is personal to my life. Why it is so, and to what end I will be judged - I trust my Lord's wisdom; for I know whom I serve.
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Old 12-04-2004, 01:47 PM   #17
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Just a quick note...

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*grins* My only comment now is the only Heaven comment. If there was only heaven and there is a no harm no foul agreement between God and Satan - then any action on the earth can be completely justified. Murdering innocents, torture, there is nothing under the sun that won't eventually take you into heaven, and so actions in this life become completely meaningless.

Not exactly. Whether you have an afterlife or not, and whether you go to heaven or hell or neither, doesn't mean that you can just do what you want while you are here on earth.


Whatever you believe, it's your actions here on earth that count now. If you were brought up believing that you only get this one shot at things, what would you do?

Would you despair and fear the coming death? Would you rejoice and go out and rob a bank because you know that you'll never see hell? Would you wish and pray to anything and everything for some semblance of yourself to last beyond your death?


I know what I would do: not worry about things after I can no longer make an impact on this world. To me, it's pointless to worry about heaven and hell and have that thought be your motivation for doing good things (or bad things) in this world. In my mind, self-preservation is not a viable reason to do the right thing. To be honest, I don't really care about heaven or hell.

I just care about living my life to the fullest, by experiencing new things, meeting people, having children, exploring how things work, and so on. I also care about not harming others, unless they are harming me or someone else. I'll very likely kill someone if they're trying to kill another person or cause them great harm, and I would be sad that I had to do that to stop that person. And I care about making sure that the things that I do in life have a positive impact for the future, no matter how small those things seem.

I am not ever motivated in what I do by religious beliefs... I've separated those from what drives me, because they are not the reason that I live the life I do.

I had a bit of this discussion with my dad before. He said that the way he sees it, he's got four options: there is no god and believe, no effect; there is no god and don't believe, no effect; there is a god and believe, positive; there is a god and don't believe, negative. The only downside is if there is a god and you don't believe according to my dad. He's right. But in my view, it doesn't matter because in any case, you are supposedly judged by your actions on earth. And if God really takes part in our lives, I'm not going to sit here and worry about what things I do, will do, or have done in respect to my chances of getting into heaven. I'm solely concerned with doing good in the here and now for the benefit if all.
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Old 12-04-2004, 03:52 PM   #18
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Just wanted to say, Asha, I completely agree with what you said in your last post. That's me to a T as well. The only problem with your father's perception is that he doesn't include the option of WHICH God(s) you give your belief to. Because believing in a God that doesn't exist is just as bad or worse as not believing in the true God, whoever that may be!

And Rav, where is the logic in the battle between God and Satan, except as a story to teach morality to children? If God created everything, including heaven, angels, etc., etc., and then an angel (whom supposedly do not have free will) fell from grace and made Hell, which is supposedly outside God's domain, then where does the struggle fit in? God made EVERYTHING, including Satan, so would it not be exceedingly simple for God to simply unmake one of his creations that went bad?

Unless God sees some value in Satan's influence upon the mortal realm? This is of course assuming God cares or is "hands on" as you say.

IMHO, the idea of God and Satan, Heaven and Hell, and every other Good/Evil polarization, or ideas like Yin/Yang, simply reflect the varying degrees of action capable within each and every human. I firmly believe in spirituality, but not a conscious higher being who listens to our prayers. For my own good, I must rely only upon myself and those around me in the mortal realm for existence, help and friendship.

And I think if there IS a God, that s/he would approve of that attitude, especially if it was used to do good or to help others. Basically, I'm a believer of Karma, and that is what guides my actions. Plus the fact that I'm a good natured and helpful person at heart. Although I have my "off" days just like anyone else!
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Old 12-04-2004, 04:26 PM   #19
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And Rav, where is the logic in the battle between God and Satan, except as a story to teach morality to children?

It never tought me much about morality, so I don't know where you get that from. To me, it is simply the bigger scene - for those that are interested. Logic? There isn't any, here. This is something either directly experienced and therefore understood, or it is merely within the realm of the philosophical - or it is within the realm of someone taking it by faith.

However, your claim that there is some form of agreement between God and (yes angels, as far as I have known, do have their free will; as a whole host of them fell from grace to follow Satan of their own volition) Satan is unsubstantiated from all the sources I have read.

So, where is your logic that there is some form of agreement?
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Old 12-24-2004, 06:15 PM   #20
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What I think about all this now is very simple. Say no, and let other people worry about saying yes.

My patience with people has grown short on this issue, and similar issues. So, now is my time to back off. Being called a bouble headed (fan boy AGAIN) in WoW was the last straw for me.

You guys have no patience for someone with my beliefs - so why should I give any damn about yours?

I hope you forgive my callousness on things now, but if I am living in a bubbly fantasy land; let me go into reality and say; as a person; I don't like the way you folks do stuff.

Stang/Gryph - take me off of THZ, I don't need to be in a place that doesn't welcome me.
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Old 12-26-2004, 10:31 PM   #21
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Quote:
Stang/Gryph - take me off of THZ, I don't need to be in a place that doesn't welcome me.
Who said yer not welcomed? I did not see that anywhere...sheese I thought it is OK to disagree
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Old 12-31-2004, 09:06 AM   #22
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I kept this stuff out of game, putting this stuff in the game and jabbing me with it definitely makes me feel unwelcome.
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Old 01-03-2005, 10:33 PM   #23
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Rav! Don't leave! Whoever called you a fanboy was an ass. As for our discussion here, I have no ill will towards you (quite a lot of respect, actually). I'm sure there are others here that feel the same way.

Besides, I do miss playing Neverwinter Nights with you, Ath, and RS... even though I haven't touched that game in a while because my harddrive died and I just got busy and into america's army.
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Old 01-04-2005, 09:59 AM   #24
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Not sure what I missed. I don't think anyone is like that in WoW, they were probably joking. Can't do anything about it without more detail Rav. The group wouldn't allow people to be jerks to others, they wouldn't last long. There are a ton of jokers in the group, you may not have read the sarcasm or maybe they didn't punctuate properly.

Though if you want to leave, I can't stop ya, but I can't help either without any info.
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Old 01-04-2005, 03:48 PM   #25
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i dont know you all that well, but dont leave
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Old 01-04-2005, 04:07 PM   #26
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Ah, I was very confused there before today. Think I've got most of the pieces now.
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