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Old 03-31-2007, 03:57 AM   #13
SiFi
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: ([]*[])The Frozen North
Age: 41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gambit View Post
SciFi, Everybody, chill. If you'll read TFA you will see a line that says:

Spell that agent's name backwards, then go look at a calendar. Sheesh.

(But I ordered a copy anyway. Been looking for an excuse...)
Well, crap. I'll say it, I overreacted, and didn't pay attention. However, the camel's back remains broken.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiyven View Post
He has a point. Would another, completely different candidate had a different response to 9/11? Or, would another, completely different candidate really made any difference since the 2004 election?

And like he (and I) said, there's no guarantee things would've been any different with someone else winning the presidency, and again as we've both said, if you don't have the support of Congress there isn't a great deal you can do. Yes, Bush as a person is not very intelligent. But at the same time, can you tell me definitely that Edwards wouldn't have done the same things he has? There's always the chance that he might not have gone into Iraq after Afghanistan. But Afghanistan, as a reactionary measure to 9/11, could be argued as a sure bet.
And any chance to have had real information and the possibility of not being lied into a war is better than what actually happened. I agree on you with Afghanistan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiyven View Post
And on the point I made on censorship: yes, those are regional implementations, this I understand. What I should have clarified was that the majority of those texts were banned for unsavoury content as would be seen under Christian morality. Ours is NO LESS a Christian state than the one to the south.
No, both countries are secular states, that both happen to have a high proportion of christians living in them. The main difference is that Canada doesn't have a mad zealot trying to remake the country in the bible's violent, perverted image.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiyven View Post
Your political views aside, friggin Jester was over there, man! Jeez.
I'm glad he's back and all right, but the reality of war is that people die. Just because someone we care about was over there in the middle of it doesn't mean we should turn a blind eye to the dangers of his situation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiyven View Post
And in some ways it's not like our peacekeeping mission in Afghanistan is going remarkably well. The only difference is that I don't think we have a majority of the population pissed off at us as well.
That's certainly a better situation than in Iraq, though yes, we are having problems. Thing is, at least there we're operating under the auspices of the UN. After all, dying in a house fire is a hideous fate. Does that mean we should never discuss fire safety, never think of preventative measures, lest mere mention of it bring it about?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiyven View Post
You're talking about problems in Congress as if it's the only political structure that has any corruption. I don't even *need* to point out the fallacy there. As immaterial and subjective as the concept is, selfishness is simply a human trait. Again, look at home: sponsorship scandal? Was that not a pet project in which large amounts of money were re-routed somewhere?
With a paper trail, and with accountability. This is 4 billion disappearing with not trace at all. Plus many billions more lost to lack of oversight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiyven View Post
I'm having a hard time viewing much of your argument with academic objectivity because some of it is rooted in narrow bias. I'm not trying to ignore the things you're presenting, but rather that they are not unique to the US, and just on speculation there is no guarantee that, given 9/11 as an circumstance, reactionary measures following would have been any different.
Again, any possiblity that maybe something different might have happened, as opposed to what we can look back on and see did happen.

Yes, I am biased. I am biased against war in any form, against killing in any form. War is never a good answer to any question ever, and should never be seen as more than an evil that has become necessary through the failure of diplomacy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiyven View Post
And on Iraq again: say tomorrow the Admin says 'alright, thats it, we're done here'. You think demobilization will happen in a day? Besides, it's partially evident that radical elements may have some degree of popular support. The US leaves, you have a bloody coup, civilians die, and the whole region destabilizes further. Yes, I think it's awful that people are dying over there, of all nationalities. But with a US-backed government in place there, again, while not entirely stable it is still FAR more predictable than some radical ass in a top hat that would take its place should the US demobilize.
No, but every day that the groundwork is not layed is one more day that the troops over there need to be vulnerable.

The longer the US stays there, the more popular the radical elements could become. When the US leaves, there'll be a bloody coup anyway.
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